Through Silk and Lace and the Mist of Prejudice

Jezmina von Thiele is an advocate and placemaker in New Hampshire, enhancing the health and well-being of communities here in the Granite State. Von Thiele is a beacon of light and resilience, not only championing the arts and culture of the Romani people, but also a trailblazer for the needs of individuals with disabilities, herself included. These people belong to our communities and deserve to express themselves unapologetically and authentically.

The Romani people have a rich history, and it is as varied and space-based as any other kingdom or empire. The Romani are documented to have originated from India and began their migration more than 1,000 years ago. The Romani people are estimated as 14 million globally, with 12 million in Europe.

This migration was followed by 500 years of slavery in Romania. During the 1930s and 1940s, the Romani populations in Austria and Germany were decimated by up to 90%. This minority group was significantly impacted by the atrocities committed in Nazi-era Germany, a fact often overlooked in school curricula when covering European and global histories.

Romani people are more commonly referred to by the racial slur, “Gypsies,” which conjures harmful stereotypes normalized in Western and American cultures. Some Roma reclaim the word Gypsy, which is their right, but unless you are Romani or a related group, instead use the correct terms, like Roma or Romani.

In the 1970s, delegations of Roma people from all over the world came together in India and solicited the government to sponsor their recognition as a distinct nationality.

With this context in mind, here is my conversation with von Thiele, edited lightly for clarity.

Q:  The influence of the Romani people on the arts and culture is vast. What do you think about when someone mentions Roma and the arts? 

Von Thiele: Our culture has influenced everything from Flamenco in Spain to contemporary Hollywood movies. There was an incredible painter, an anarchist communist writer named Helios Gómez Rodríguez. He left a great legacy and persevered through much of the fascism corroding Europe during the 1930s, ’40s and ’50s.

Johann Trollmann was also an incredible figure in Nazi resistance; a boxer who continued to stand and fight, reclaiming humanity in the face of Nazi propaganda regarding biological inferiority of minorities in Europe. We have this vitality and an unconquerable spirit.

Often, in film, we are represented as evil or as witches and warlocks. I like to think of it as the greatness of our historic presence creating fear around our culture, and so we are often turned villainous. Often, our spiritual practices are commodified and exploited. There are many aspects of our personhood, which have been appropriated into inaccurate portrayals of curses and witchcraft in the media.

Q:  You will be conducting a curse soon. Does it have a history or an intention that goes beyond the caricatures Hollywood has rendered?

Von Thiele: Historically, magical practices like cursing are often about communal intention setting. Our spiritual practices are centered on spiritual and physical cleanliness, an easing of the mind. But we have cursed fascists in times of great tumult as spiritual defense, and sometimes we will idiomatically or poetically curse ourselves to keep ourselves honest or emphasize our earnestness —  like “may my eyes fall out if I’m lying to you right now.” Sometimes, they are things you say to yourself. Sometimes these curse rituals embody the rage of the oppressed, and are performed privately in community, or theatrically in public to protect and empower the vulnerable, and take down the energy of the oppressors.

I will be performing this very thing in Salem, Mass., on Aug. 21 at 1 p.m.

Q:  Though most of the Roma population lives in Europe, they still face much displacement. Recently, France had conducted mass deportations of the Romani people under the guise of reducing crime. Is the United States a more favorable home to your community?

Von Thiele: In some ways, it’s easier to blend in here, and not as many people even understand who Roma are, but there is still discrimination, documented for the first time in a 2020 study entitled “Roma Realities in the United States” through the Harvard FXB Center led by Margareta Matache. Sometimes American culture celebrates some aspects of that wild independence which we cherish, but often in a way that whitewashes our persecution and appropriates our culture. This is a huge issue considering the centuries of violence, slavery and multiple genocides. Some of us even ended up here as a result of the slave trade, for instance, the Romani population in the American South, especially Louisiana, as well as the Caribbean, and South and Central Americas. My own grandmother came from Germany in the 1950s after the Holocaust to escape continued persecution and the threat of death.

Q:  You and a friend of yours, Paulina Stevens, have co-authored a book together, “Secrets of Romani Fortune-Telling: Diving with Tarot, Palmistry, Tea Leaves and More,” as well as co-created the podcast “Romanistan.” There is much which is covered in your podcast from art shows throughout the country, alternative healing practices and debunking much of the racist colorations on the Roma peoples. What are some of the hardships that arise from more traditional Romani communities?

Von Thiele: There are some traditional communities that do not want to assimilate, which is totally reasonable, but insularity can further marginalize Romani women and LGBTQ+ folks, and make it harder to find help and support through experiences like domestic abuse, arranged teen marriage, lack of access to education, etc.

Paulina Stevens, my partner in crime, was exiled from her community for resisting traditional gender norms, mainly leaving her arranged marriage, fighting for custody of her children, and dating outside of her culture. Her story is told in the LA Times podcast “Foretold,” as well as our own podcast, “Romanistan.”

I, on the other hand, am mixed and grew up fairly assimilated, but even assimilated Roma can suffer the harms of insularity and the pressure of keeping their identity a secret, like I did as a kid. But  I did not grow up with any expectation of an arranged marriage, and I was encouraged to attend school as long as I wanted. I was pressured to marry early by my Romani mother, but I could marry whoever I wanted.

Paulina and I like to clarify that any abuse we have experienced is a result of intergenerational trauma and oppression, not a result of our culture, which is beautiful and diverse.

Q:   I assume like any other cultural practices, within the Romani people there are approaches to healing, which are integrated?

Von Thiele: Absolutely. Many Roma see Western doctors and so do I. There are, of course, religious fundamentalists within the Romani community, as well as many other communities, who may reject modern medical practices. Many Roma look to both Western and traditional medicine these days. Often, Roma adopt the dominant religion of wherever they settle or travel, which can sometimes influence us away from our folk practices, but sometimes they live side by side in a kind of syncretism. My family is ostensibly Catholic, but I never went to church and my spiritual upbringing, especially my family trade of fortune telling, is far more rooted in folk beliefs.

We have our own folk medicine and herbalism, much of which is rooted in Ayurvedic practices that incorporate the balance of body and mind as integral components of whole health and well-being. Ayurveda is of Indian origins, and the Romani have adapted these practices over a thousand years of diaspora to reflect which herbs and medicines were locally available, and we have influenced the cultural, linguistic and healing practices of all the places we’ve traveled. I needed to connect with these traditional means of medicine as a result of chronic illness, as well as the spiritual traditions my grandmother taught me. These practices have brought me peace where Western medicine cannot.

Q:  I want to know more about the patriarchal practices within Romani clans.

Von Thiele: We are mostly a patriarchal culture, but that might not reflect everyone’s experiences because we aren’t a monolith. There is an argument among some academics that due to the Romani experience of exile, displacement and genocide, patriarchy is prevalent because of the assimilation of different cultures, dependent on where we could resettle.

Feminism, gender liberationism and queerness is an important movement in our communities today, however, and are integral aspects of my personhood as a queer, nonbinary person, and survivor of CSA, SA, and DV. Paulina and I use “Romanistan” as a platform to challenge traditions that no longer serve us, rid ourselves of shame, and celebrate the evolution and progression of Romani culture.

Q:  Through some of the work I have done with the Haudenosaunee Confederacy and the Mashpee Confederacy, I can draw parallels to the amorphous nature of each clans’ essence, that each tribe will have different stories and variations in cultural practices. How does it work for systems of justice?

Von Thiele: Because we are not federally recognized, we fall under the established court system in this country. But Romani courts, called Kris, exist in larger, traditional communities, and they are the only law for them. It is rare for Roma in these communities to use American courts or call the police.

When Paulina used the American court system to fight for custody of her children, this was a grave offense, and part of the reason she was exiled, even though she was advocating for the well-being of her children, since the Kris in her community would rule that she would have to leave her children if she left her marriage. This is not the kind of experience I had growing up, nor is it the experience of every other Romani person.

However, since my grandmother came to the U.S. alone, I had a more fragmented relationship to culture and community.

Q: In much of the racist lore aimed at Romani people, often in movies, individuals are characterized by colorful garb, jewels and headwear. What is your relation to your personal aesthetic?

Von Thiele: To contradict some of the misunderstandings of our culture, we did not have access to intergenerational wealth. Roma women traditionally wear big skirts for modesty, and sometimes a head covering called a dikhlo. The bright colors are for spiritual protection, or they just reflect the aesthetics of your vitsa (your clan or tribe), and there is much pride in looking nice and being decked out.

Men traditionally wear vests and hats. We wear our wealth (the jewelry) because banks, historically, would not let us put our money within them, and sometimes still don’t, and it is a quicker way to trade for goods and services.

There are many laws aimed at our type of work — healing, fortune telling, especially —  creating more barriers in order to make money legitimately. Often, people think there is much theft and scamming, but those aspects are more associated with anyone experiencing extreme poverty than with Romani people in general.

Q: I assume you face aspects of bigotry in today’s environment.

Von Thiele: I was 10 the first time I had a bad encounter with the law. I was wearing a head covering, my grandmother’s dikhlo, and the police picked me up for “looking like a runaway,” code for looking like a Gypsy.

When I tried to explain that my father was just a block away, I was surrounded by five cop cars and detained in a police car and questioned, and it took half an hour to convince the police to take me to my father instead of the police station.

Today, I face the usual racism online and sometimes in person. More recently, I was accused of faking my disability for money and sympathy, a common racist and ableist trope of the “crippled Gypsy beggar.” Can you get more crude than that?

Q: How can people get access to your services?

Von Thiele: People can visit my website jezminavonthiele.com. I conduct tarot, palm, and tea leaf readings and workshops at shops around the Seacoast, and I like to travel to give readings and to speak about Romani arts, spirituality and culture at colleges, libraries and more. I also offer readings and workshops online and on my Patreon, and I have a monthly Tarot column in Bustle. In addition to my fortune-telling work, I’m a writer, storyteller, artist and performer, and all of these disciplines influence and inform each other.

People can also follow our podcast “Romanistan” for interviews with Roma from all walks of life, on Apple, Spotify, Audible, Sticker and more. You can visit romanistanpodcast.com to listen, too, and to use our cultural resources page. Paulina and I offer cultural sensitivity editing and consulting for creators and the media, and our book “Secrets of Romani Fortune Telling” (Weiser Books, 2024) is available everywhere.

I want to end this interview by saying that I care about trauma and spiritually informed aid as a community healing. Roma has practiced fortune telling for others and ourselves as our first community care. We use this belief system to uplift ourselves and individuals who access our resources. My work is rooted in grounded, non-judgmental, solution-oriented advice for anyone seeking direction from a spiritual source.

You write your own story, and I can help you find the narrative.  I think of myself as a salve between the cracks. People need to seek medical professionals, but also people need to feel safe and held in other ways. This is where we show up.

This article was featured in 603 Diversity.

603 Diversity’s mission is to educate readers of all backgrounds about the exciting accomplishments and cultural contributions of the state’s diverse communities, as well as the challenges faced and support needed by those communities to continue to grow and thrive in the Granite State.

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